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Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:37:51 - [1] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Quote: Q: What about farming on free alts using systems like industry? A: WeGÇÖve deliberately tried to limit this behavior using the skills allowed in the Alpha list. Without skills to increase things like material efficiency it should be very hard to scale alt farms in a way that hurts the ecosystem. Didn't you remove skills for improving ME because it was an unfair barrier? Do you even still know your game? Quote: Q: WonGÇÖt lag be a huge problem? A: We are confident that we can handle a significant increase in activity, so hopefully not. We are prepared to make design changes if this does become a problem, and as always we will continue investing in our hardware and our code base. The last big battle in Nalvula proves that as a blatant lie. The new hardware is not capable of accommodating any more players, it's in fact only able to accommodate fewer players. So, CCP doesn't know their game, CCP can't stop lying ... and now they want more players in the game based on that? Looking forward to it. Big battles are always a lag problem. This was true when we have 45,000 logging in and it is true now when we have 25,000 logging. So your objection to lag is noted and also rejected. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:39:39 - [2] - Quote Winter Archipelago wrote: Will Alpha industrialists be limited in what they can build? It's a bit meaningless to say they can't research ME or PE when you can buy fully-researched BPO's, and considering the sheer number of characters free accounts could generate, the lack of production lines is largely irrelevant. Man, so many of the industrialists need to read Frederic Bastiat..... This creates a new market opportunity for people who can do these things. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:41:14 - [3] - Quote Zappity wrote: Didn't see that coming. T3Ds, cloaking, and cyno are not usable on alpha clones so I don't really see a problem with the concept. More people flying T1 frigs, destroyers and cruisers is good for the game. I foresee herds of low skill but free miners across New Eden, though. That is a concerning. This is really critical: devblog wrote: Q: Are there restrictions on simultaneous log on for Alpha Clones? A: We have not decided whether the simultaneous log on restrictions from the current trial system will apply to Alpha Clones. The decision will partly depend on your feedback, as well as our technical investigations over the coming months. PLEASE limit the number of simultaneous logins for alpha clones. I suggest two or three. That is enough to let people taste alt play without becoming blatantly exploitative. It also limits the inevitable uptick in ganking, though probably not by enough. Mining ships are not part of any faction/race, so I'd guess most of those will be unavailable to them. Granted they could still mine in frigs, dessies and cruisers, but the efficiency is much lower. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:47:26 - [4] - Quote Zanar Skwigelf wrote: Nicolai Serkanner wrote: I can not believe CCP takes this path. One example: have multiple T1 ganker clones for free. Another one: have dozens of T1 mining alts emptying belts faster than they can spawn. What are you thinking CCP? Both problems are fixed by getting out of high sec Not only that but belts were not being mined out even when we had 50,000 people logging in during peak hours. This fear is wildly over blown unless people are expecting to see numbers going even higher than 50,000 PCU. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:48:13 - [5] - Quote Brown Pathfinder wrote: This is a huge change to eve wich might help get new players in wich is a good thing! My personal monkey with this is as a wormhole explorer player that in periods live in the deepest space that you want to remove my ability to have cloak and pirate and t2 ships, so if i would be inactive for a while and come back in my stratios or anathema or legion and I would be in wh-space I would have to self destruct since i cant cloak while in a cov op ship Why not just pay your sub before logging in? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 17:55:18 - [6] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: Interesting. So far, I cannot think of any major objections. I will try to think of ways this can be abused, but barring that I don't see it being a bad thing. I think it'd be fine for unlimited Mega clone clients to run along with a single Alpha clone client on the same computer, but I have concerns about multiple Alpha clone clients. First possible "abuse": Train an Alpha clone to 5m SP. Switch it to Omega state, train Cybernetics to 5, plug in +5 implants, and have an SP farm ready to go without having to pay for the initial 5m SP investment. From a revenue standpoint...so? So they skip that first month or so, but every month after that they are coughing up the money. If that means more people with paid accounts that otherwise....how is that bad? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5151	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:00:45 - [7] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: First, this is about trial vs. subscription, so in my opinion if you obfuscate this fact by using completely non-descriptive terms like "alpha" and "omega", you're doing yourselves a dis-service. You're placing a point of confusion between your game and people opening their wallets to pay you for it. I would like to recommend calling it "trial" clones and "subscribed" clones, and inventing some in-character explanation for those terms. Because that's what we're familiar with. Second, "alpha" and "omega"? "beginning" and "end"? really? You don't envision in-between states, like us paying through our nose to unlock individual features (I want access to the Megathron dammit, I love that ship, but I don't want to pay subscription or unlock anything else)? You don't envision more-than-subscription states, such as paying 2x subscription costs to slow-train at 2x the speed? 3x subscription for 3x speed? You don't envision anything in between alpha and omega, or beyond omega? Link the subscription model to the clones if you want, it's a fine idea. But just name it what it is, and let the naming convention allow for shades of grey in between and beyond "subscribed" or "not". Sooo...just to be clear you want more microtransactions, not less. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5153	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:18:55 - [8] - Quote Ryzhik Belka wrote: Swarms of ventures will drive mineral costs to zero. Yeah, no. Back when we were routinely hitting 45,000 people logged in we did not see this. Now we are typically around 25,000. How many people do you think are going to logging in? These kind of histrionics are just foolish. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5153	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:20:21 - [9] - Quote Asgard 2 wrote: CCP Falcon, I have friends who have stopped playing ages ago, and who have let their accounts run out while sitting inside their Super Capitals. What happens if they log back in on an Alpha Account inside a Super Cap? Hahahaha... Maybe they should pay their sub until they get the super safe. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5153	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:23:11 - [10] - Quote Henry Plantgenet wrote: "How many greek letters can we squeeze between alpha and omega? As many as we can divise payment schemes for muahaha" 24 "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5154	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:28:07 - [11] - Quote Drazz Caylen wrote: Asgard 2 wrote: I have friends who have stopped playing ages ago, and who have let their accounts run out while sitting inside their Super Capitals. What happens if they log back in on an Alpha Account inside a Super Cap? Let's sing the reprise of; "Read the devblog, will you, you're welcome." It's a fantastic song. I should write it. Quote: Q: What happens if I log in as an Alpha but IGÇÖm in a ship with required Omega skills? A: You will be allowed to fly the ship until the next time you dock, but any ship bonuses or attributes will not gain the benefits of Omega skills. So basically, fly a hunk of junk with no bonus attributes and likely all modules being offline. Good luck. Or just pay your sub for that account. Log in, get your stuff safe. If you don't plan on using that account...then don't and it remains safe. If want to use the account, but not the super, then sell the super, extract all the omega skills, sell it all for lots of ISK, let your sub expire and play as an alpha with a fat wallet. Anything else you need my help on? Making toast? Pouring a cup of coffee? Tying your shoes? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5154	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:38:55 - [12] - Quote Grapez wrote: The reason for this change, the ONLY REASON, is to get more players. It's clear that the PCU number will increase, but CCP won't get money from all of those. This is dumb, IMO. The max daily PCU right now is about 25k. That's more than when I started this account over 10 years ago, and back then I certainly didn't get the feeling that Eve was empty or needed more players. If CCP wants there to be more players, then focus on making the game better. Loading up Eve (and your petition queues...) with players who aren't even paying you is straight stupid. Unless people decide to switch over to Omega and start paying to access the stuff they can't as an Alpha. This mitigates the complaint that people pay for a sub just to skill up basic skills. Now that can largely be done without paying, and if a player decides he wants to have access to other parts of the game in terms of skills, and the in game items those skills engender....then money for CCP and more players for us. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5156	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:46:53 - [13] - Quote Zockhandra wrote: Q: What happens if my subscription ends while I'm logged in, will I be converted to Alpha in the middle of a fight? A: In these cases, you will remain an Omega until the next time you log out. We won't ever turn skills off during the middle of a session. Quote from CCP Announcement Sorry, But does this mean that if your clone gets turned to alpha, then you cant fly any of the ships you spent 7 years training for? If that is the case, that is an extremely unrewarding system and (personally) ridiculously unfair to your Veteren pilots (who have funded you for more than 10 years). If you cannot use the skills you have trained after x amount of years, whats the point in paying to aqquire them? Theres no progression there. Just pay your sub and enjoy your advantage over the Alpha clones and stop whining. Jesus, these people wanting the consumer surplus for free...you are just ridiculous. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5156	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:49:28 - [14] - Quote Kirin Amatin wrote: There are a few ways this can be easily abused, mostly connected to hordes of cheap/free accounts. Support Griffin wings for PvP... keep a small stable (~10ish) logged in, bring them in to the fight as you see fit If I'm reading the skill list correctly, you can still put together a fairly decent ganking catalyst (or ganking vexor) army on these free accounts For larger alliances, it's completely free to have a spare account logged into each system. (in a POS or citadel). Watching local... (partly mitigated by the lack of cloaking) Alternating between paying and non-paying for certain forms of trader alts seems like it will be a thing... (even more than it is now, since you're not completely shut out of the account) I'm not sure if locking simultaneous logins is a good idea... because Omega clones "degrade" to Alpha state when not paid. The frustration from that for someone coming back might be a bit much. For someone dedicated to getting around the problem, there are always ways. (as well as causing silly issues for anyone behind certain forms of NATting router) Which can be solved by limiting simultaneous logins. This is still up in the air....if you read the Devblog. Edit: And yeah, there are always ways around the EULA, so what. The idea that it will be wide spread is a bit of a stretch if you ask me. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5156	Posted - 2016.08.31 18:54:16 - [15] - Quote Captain Campion wrote: It strikes me as odd that you need a separate account for each alt - try remembering all that login info?! - rather than just being able to make all these on one account and train them all - but when you make a subscription just choose which character it applies to. Is there a good reason for this? To me it just seems bad. in b4 someone says "to me you just seem bad". <3 eve Keepass is an awesome thing. I don't know any of my Eve passwords (they are really long psuedo-randomly generated to prevent people from getting into my account). And my usernames are also stored there as well. Copy paste, copy paste, log in. The reason for multiple accounts used to be training your alts and main simultaneously plus logging in multiple accounts to do things. Now with the free Alpha clone accounts it could be possible for people to make a very large number of alt accounts and abuse this feature by logging them all in at once and doing stuff. There maybe some validity to this, but this can be mitigated by limiting the number of logged in Alpha accounts. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5157	Posted - 2016.08.31 19:03:22 - [16] - Quote tasman devil wrote: Fine, great. Team Size Matters wrote: The CSM heard about this concept just a couple days ago--basically the same time you are, but we are communicating now specifically so that they can help gather your feedback and bring it to us for the summit in September, where we will be flying out the entire CSM for the first time. If you would rather talk to us directly, the forum thread for this blog is a great place to start and we will be opening up other channels, such as a Reddit AMA, in the coming weeks. But do please tell me why the hell do we vote for CSM again when they aren't even notified of this. I mean English may be a second language to me but it does seem to me that you neither thought nor really wanted to bring in on such a game-changing decision. Also they are now relegated to "ticket counters". Nice work! They notified the CSM and us at about the same time with 2 months before this is implemented. This way they can get maximum feedback. What is the problem here, you'd rather be kept in the dark longer? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5158	Posted - 2016.08.31 20:31:54 - [17] - Quote Anke Eyrou wrote: VonDerTann wrote: I just concerned about one thing: how about mulitple charactors under same account, if you are paid player, your main charactor is omega, the other two will regard as omega too or as alpha From what read in the dev blog thhey are treated as Omega. Since you pay for an account, all characters will be Omega...just as it has always been. Don't lose your **** over this. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5159	Posted - 2016.08.31 21:18:50 - [18] - Quote Ocean Ormand wrote: Just curious - the punishment for botting is banning - but now its free to make accounts - so ccp would have to ban the ip. But I think (I may be wrong) that you can manipulate your ip address if you want. So CCP just effectively threw in the towel on botting - a botter gets banned - he just keeps making new accounts - since there is no cost or punishment to him there is no disincentive to botting. Other than having all your stuff gone. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5159	Posted - 2016.08.31 21:27:02 - [19] - Quote Roenok Baalnorn wrote: 2) Lots of free players do not always mean lots more paying customers. In a F2P/P2W game about 50% of the players will never pay 2 play despite the fact they are at a significant disadvantage. The Clone model of eve doesnt put them at a significant disadvantage. They can still do everything paying players can, just in crappier ships with crappier mods. Sooo...they can't do everything a paying player can. Can they use a cloak for a variety of reasons? No. Can they light a cyno? No. Can they use capitals? No. Can they invent T2 modules and the like? No. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5159	Posted - 2016.08.31 21:30:46 - [20] - Quote Moac Tor wrote: You'll have to make it so all alpha skills are unable to be extracted, otherwise it will be very easy to milk free SP at no cost. And by the way, I don't think this will influence subscribers unless it is matched by an improvement in the NPE. This is basically just the same as the free trial in many respects, and so I wouldn't expect any major changes in subscriber numbers as a result. The possibilities for exploitation though are great if this isn't implemented carefully. Nope. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5159	Posted - 2016.08.31 21:40:39 - [21] - Quote TheVirus32 wrote: - Flexible plex prices, AKA: the more the demand the more the prices get closer to regular 1 month membership prices, to ensure that plex doesn't go through the roof (and that's coming from someone who never plexes, because I like keeping my iskies) Uhhh...why? Are Alpha's going to be buying PLEX? For what purpose? If anything they'll likely be selling them to get ISK. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5159	Posted - 2016.08.31 21:52:57 - [22] - Quote Moac Tor wrote: Andrea Cemenotar wrote: Moac Tor wrote: You'll have to make it so all alpha skills are unable to be extracted, otherwise it will be very easy to milk free SP at no cost. And by the way, I don't think this will influence subscribers unless it is matched by an improvement in the NPE. This is basically just the same as the free trial in many respects, and so I wouldn't expect any major changes in subscriber numbers as a result. The possibilities for exploitation though are great if this isn't implemented carefully. the minimal amount of sp you have to have prior to using extraction is 5.5 million SPs in the dev blog they say that fully maxed in skillz alpha should have around 5mill SPs which is somewhere around 500k SPs short to use an extractor anyway so officially stating "alphas cannot use extractor" would be imo kinda redundant [other thing being old toons with advanced skills trained that turned alpha and wish to extract SPs from "locked out" skillz] 1. Get a 5mil SP character who's SP is not allocated in the Alpha skills. 2. Revert to an Alpha clone. 3. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth. 4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP. 5. Revert to an Alpha clone. 6. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth. 7. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP. 8. Repeat for free SP. It doesn't take much for someone to work this out and then scale it onto hundreds of accounts. You cannot extract below 5 million SP, IIRC. So, not going to work. You'll have to train above 5 million which will require a paid sub. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.08.31 21:59:03 - [23] - Quote Andrea Cemenotar wrote: win189 wrote: i think there should be Some Exceptions to this like for example if a Alpha logs in and a omega logs in it will allow but it will only restrict one alpha at a time can't upvote it enought! :) Moac Tor wrote: Andrea Cemenotar wrote: Moac Tor wrote: You'll have to make it so all alpha skills are unable to be extracted, otherwise it will be very easy to milk free SP at no cost. And by the way, I don't think this will influence subscribers unless it is matched by an improvement in the NPE. This is basically just the same as the free trial in many respects, and so I wouldn't expect any major changes in subscriber numbers as a result. The possibilities for exploitation though are great if this isn't implemented carefully. the minimal amount of sp you have to have prior to using extraction is 5.5 million SPs in the dev blog they say that fully maxed in skillz alpha should have around 5mill SPs which is somewhere around 500k SPs short to use an extractor anyway so officially stating "alphas cannot use extractor" would be imo kinda redundant [other thing being old toons with advanced skills trained that turned alpha and wish to extract SPs from "locked out" skillz] 1. Get a 5mil SP character who's SP is not allocated in the Alpha skills. 2. Revert to an Alpha clone. 3. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth. 4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP. 5. Revert to an Alpha clone. 6. Train all the Alpha skills to maximum of 5mil SP worth. 7. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP. 8. Repeat for free SP. It doesn't take much for someone to work this out and then scale it onto hundreds of accounts. hmmmm I have to admitt I haven't thought about it this way but then to be honest the amount of time needed for each cycle makes it feels [to me] quite ineffective - at least compared to currently existing SP farms It is not free SP unless you consider subbing every other month to be "free". Further, the subbed character is no longer an Alpha, they are no Omega clones. So, the idea of preventing Alphas from using extractors won't mean anything. If you really wanted to stop this, prevent extractors from working when there are unallocated SP. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.08.31 22:06:54 - [24] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: I vote only 1 F2P Account allowed on same IP as a sub account, otherwise, 1 Account only. Also, no skills beyond level 3... In addition... No Advanced Modules No Cloaks at all unless time limit given to prototype cloaks T1 cruiser to L1 Mastery no further No Mining Barges Must maintain security status of -1 or higher Cannot start a corporation or alliance Abuse of the system/players using F2P will result in permaband of F2P accounts and any subbed accounts, with clear rules as to what constitutes abuse. Of course, this is predicated on the idea of being caught abusing it. 1 Billion ISK cap of account. If they have enough ISK to buy Plex, they need to play free that way. Market Sell cap of 500 million, can't have any more sell orders at a time than that in value. I may edit this post with more as I think of it. Maybe you should read the DevBlog....? They already state cloaking is out as are cynos for Alphas. Mining barges too based on the requirements are not in the Alpha Skill list. And I think the alliance thing is also covered in the skill lists. As for corporations, that is allowed as players can train corp management to level 1. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.08.31 22:07:45 - [25] - Quote Kolmogorow wrote: Moac Tor wrote: 4. Subscribe for a month and extract all the Alpha skill SP. Extracting SPs from the Alpha skill set won't be allowed as the Dev Blog says: "Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set." Poor Moac.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.08.31 22:10:15 - [26] - Quote Andrea Cemenotar wrote: he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms..... Yeah, as somebody pointed out, not going to be possible. Quote: Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills? A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.08.31 22:17:40 - [27] - Quote Roenok Baalnorn wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Roenok Baalnorn wrote: 2) Lots of free players do not always mean lots more paying customers. In a F2P/P2W game about 50% of the players will never pay 2 play despite the fact they are at a significant disadvantage. The Clone model of eve doesnt put them at a significant disadvantage. They can still do everything paying players can, just in crappier ships with crappier mods. Sooo...they can't do everything a paying player can. Can they use a cloak for a variety of reasons? No. Can they light a cyno? No. Can they use capitals? No. Can they invent T2 modules and the like? No. Im comparing game models not what a free player eve can do to what a paying player can do.... totally different. In F2P/ P2W models they use a sheep/wolf concept. You either volunteer to be the sheep or you pay to be the wolf. It works because once you get past a 2-4 weeks in game, everything gets stupidly long and you start needing special items for things that can only be bought. Imagine training amarr BS level 5 and it taking 350 days for that one level. Training Amarr dread level 3 and it taking 480 days. training Amarr titan 4 and it taking 2369 days. Then you are offered 5 day speed ups, 50 day speed ups, 500 day speed ups, etc. Every few weeks they move the goal post and introduce new special items that make everything else obsolete or underpowered. It becomes a massive money sink. You would spend less money drunk in Las Vegas than you would just too stay competitive. What? Quote: In Eve that wont happen. Because i can start a gallente character. And basically farm high sec for months or years and never pay for anything. I dont have to try to compete no more than anyone else. I cant use more powerful ships. But so what? Its high sec. Wow, you are going run missions and mine for years. Holy Hell I can't think of anything more depressing. Quote: Give me a Vexor and i can do amazing things with farming in high sec. In fact can Alphas use faction/deadspace? If alphas can use faction and deadspace then they could use a VNI with faction amps, faction prop, and faction tank mods and farm nearly as well as a player that can T2 fit everything. I have an alt that is pro at a gila ( even though Alphas couldnt use this because of the dual ship train) and can get 650 dps out of with less than 5 mil SP and a good enough tank to do DED 5/10s. Cause farming HS is everything in Eve. Oh, and if they want to fit deadspace stuff to their VNI fine, I'll look forward to the whine threads on the forums after they get ganked. Hell I might take up ganking mission runners as well. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.08.31 22:27:49 - [28] - Quote Andrea Cemenotar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Andrea Cemenotar wrote: he meant extracting "alpha allowed skills" as omega with 5mill+ in omega-only skills and then allowing it to drop back to alpha for reskilling those alpha allowed skills - but the longer I think about it, the more I get to think tha whole idea is just gimped less effective attempt of currently existing SP farms..... Yeah, as somebody pointed out, not going to be possible. Quote: Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills? A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set. now I feel stupid for reading the blog from the beginning to the end and not noticing the part " and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set." in Q/A >.< Don't feel bad, seems most of us missed it too. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:07:38 - [29] - Quote EvilweaselSA wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: so with the ability to get to 5m sp, skill injector prices are going to crash as people can create a farm of 100 skillgoop bastards for free then only subscribe them to train + extract once its profitable also, t1 production could not be more dead when you can scale t1 production jobs infinitely for free The DevBlog specifically states that you CANNOT extract skills from an Alpha Clone! How many of you are just reading the title and then clicking the Comments thread to scream about things you don't even understand? EDIT: Okay, I see what you're saying about subscribing them afterwards, but how do you make a profit with that? PLEX cost more than Skill Injectors. holy ** you're dumb you can fill up way more than one extractor per plex cycle Holy ** you're dumb. Note he wrote injectors. And he is slightly incorrect. If you fill up 3 injectors worth of SP you make about as much as a PLEX costs. The prices of extractors, injectors were speculated to end up close to the cost of a PLEX...and look it is. So if you are going to create 100 "skillgoop bastards" (which is not free as there is opportunity costs; if setting up 100 accounts is your idea of time well spent...you're pretty pathetic) you'll rarely sub them and log them in and if you did, by the time you are done skilling any profit you might have obtained could very well vanish. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:19:57 - [30] - Quote EvilweaselSA wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Holy **** you're dumb. Note he wrote injectors. And he is slightly incorrect. If you fill up 3 injectors worth of SP you make about as much as a PLEX costs. The prices of extractors, injectors were speculated to end up close to the cost of a PLEX...and look it is. So if you are going to create 100 "skillgoop bastards" (which is not free as there is opportunity costs; if setting up 100 accounts is your idea of time well spent...you're pretty pathetic) you'll rarely sub them and log them in and if you did, by the time you are done skilling any profit you might have obtained could very well vanish. thinking, reading, and math are all not really your strong suit as you have embarrassed yourself on all three here Yeah, exactly where is the error? BTW, look at what you wrote: Skill Injectors are going to crash! But....skill injectors will be profitable enough for you to log in. Which one is it? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:21:30 - [31] - Quote Ikshuki wrote: Mephiztopheleze wrote: My $0.02: By and large, I think this is a good idea from CCP and it's one I hope will be accompanied by an advertising blitz to draw in new players. I'll be interested to see what, if any, multiple log-in restrictions are implemented. A few points: 1: Alphas should not be able to use Cloaks nor light Cynosural Fields. Cloaks are great. Cynos are great. Free disposable alts with cloaks and cynos? Please think very carefully about that one. 2: Think very carefully about allowing Alphas to fly the Venture. My first thought when reading about this was: Sweet, I can stash a 20 Alpha Account Venture fleet in my Wormhole to crack any Ore anomalies that turn up. I'll do it too, unless there's some mechanical reason preventing me. I have a rather grunty PC. If I go into potato mode, I daresay I could fairly easily run those 20 accounts. I also daresay I won't be the only one. what's to say some won't do it with 50+ accounts? They got kicked out of their parent's basement, that's what is stopping them. I know! Lets take the most extreme examples and pretend they'll be the norm. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:36:02 - [32] - Quote EvilweaselSA wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Yeah, exactly where is the error? BTW, look at what you wrote: Skill Injectors are going to crash! But....skill injectors will be profitable enough for you to log in. Which one is it? i will give you the easiest and most obvious one that you should have been able to figure out to whet your appetite for knowledge and self improvement: you get more than 3 injectors per plex Really? How do you accomplish this magic? 8,760 hours in a year (non-leap year). 8,760/12 = 730 hours for your "average" month. To get 4 extractors you will have to skill at about 2,740 SP/hour. Implants? Well, the theoretical max there is 2,700/hour. You are just short of covering your average monthly sub costs for the second month. Further, your argument is basically a market timing argument. You'll be able to tell when selling skill injectors is going to be profitable 30 or so days in advance. In the end, all you'll end up doing is covering your sub costs more or less once you incur that initial $1,495 cost (possibly $2,990) to start the subs. Edit: And I don't recall the requirements for attribute enhancing implants, can those be trained on an Alpha account? If not, then you'll definitely spend nearly $3,000 on this scheme. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:37:26 - [33] - Quote EvilweaselSA wrote: it occurs to me that freighters are another ideal thing for this (well, besides that they will now die en masse) you train up your npc freighter alt, fit bulkheads on it, and then let it go alpha you lose the ship bonuses but whatever, you can still use bulkheads and as long as you're still in the hull you can fly for free You can't fly the freighter once that happens. Or maybe you should start calling people dumb fucks. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:47:03 - [34] - Quote Magothys wrote: I'm agreed on the "one alpha per player" suggestion, too much potential for zerging otherwise. Possible abuse off the top of my head: Step 1: Create X number of accounts and give them 5.5 million SP in skills unrelated to alpha set. Step 2: Switch to alpha mode, training all alpha skills to max, while researching BPO's. Step 3: When alpha skills are maxed, PLEX account and use 10 skill extractors on alpha skills. Step 4: Give skill injectors to main and either use or sell them. Step 5: Repeat from Step 2. Right now the plan is you cannot extract the alpha skills. So, as currently proposed, this will not work. Quote: Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills? A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5160	Posted - 2016.09.01 00:51:17 - [35] - Quote Ikshuki wrote: Magothys wrote: I'm agreed on the "one alpha per player" suggestion, too much potential for zerging otherwise. Possible abuse off the top of my head: Step 1: Create X number of accounts and give them 5.5 million SP in skills unrelated to alpha set. Step 2: Switch to alpha mode, training all alpha skills to max, while researching BPO's. Step 3: When alpha skills are maxed, PLEX account and use 10 skill extractors on alpha skills. Step 4: Give skill injectors to main and either use or sell them. Step 5: Repeat from Step 2. and that's the bottom line, i also see server crashes as too many players or multiboxers will overwhelm the systems, which is why they'll abonon this dumb idea, i have no issues with a D2P model, but in order for eve to have one would require ccp of limiting 1 account to be allowed to be open at 1 time at the launch and not allow multiple eve windows to be open at once, the ultimate solution No, he's wrong. Quote: Q: Can Alpha clones inject and extract skills? A: You can Inject skills regardless of your clone state. Currently, we are planning to require Omega state for skill extraction and also not allow the extraction of skills in the Alpha set. Unless CCP goes in the opposite direction, that plan won't work. And...just curious...how many people do people think this will bring in? Do you really think we are going to see huge numbers off this? Have you guys gone to Eve Offline? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5163	Posted - 2016.09.01 04:45:30 - [36] - Quote Winter Archipelago wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: EvilweaselSA wrote: i will give you the easiest and most obvious one that you should have been able to figure out to whet your appetite for knowledge and self improvement: you get more than 3 injectors per plex Really? How do you accomplish this magic? 8,760 hours in a year (non-leap year). 8,760/12 = 730 hours for your "average" month. To get 4 extractors you will have to skill at about 2,740 SP/hour. Implants? Well, the theoretical max there is 2,700/hour. You are just short of covering your average monthly sub costs for the second month. Further, your argument is basically a market timing argument. You'll be able to tell when selling skill injectors is going to be profitable 30 or so days in advance. In the end, all you'll end up doing is covering your sub costs more or less once you incur that initial $1,495 cost (possibly $2,990) to start the subs. Edit: And I don't recall the requirements for attribute enhancing implants, can those be trained on an Alpha account? If not, then you'll definitely spend nearly $3,000 on this scheme. Teckos, you're taking each month as if it existed as an isolated island. They don't. You end up with a six-month cycle (if my memory serves me), where you get 3 extractions in the first month, followed by four extractions for the next five. It's somewhere around 3.85 extractions per month. It's profitable right now by about 100 mil per month. Whether it stays that way is to be seen, as prices are quickly reaching an equilibrium. For what it's worth, though, considering how closely the prices of Extractors, Injectors, and PLEX are tied to each other, I doubt we'll ever see it where you can't PLEX yourself via Extraction. This is a rough estimated of the break-even points based on an 8-day extraction cycle for PLEX at various values. It's what I suspect Extractors and Injectors will be, at worst (that is, equilibrium with PLEX). I've been wrong before, though. Yes, on average you can pay for your sub, but the problem with averages is that some months you won't and you'll shell out nearly $1500 to keep the game going. Tell me which side of a 6 sided die has 3.5 on it? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5163	Posted - 2016.09.01 05:21:58 - [37] - Quote Mara Pahrdi wrote: This here caught my eye when I read the devblog: Quote: Questions about abuse: Q: WonGÇÖt suicide ganking using free characters be a major problem? A: We donGÇÖt think clone states will have much impact on suicide ganking or other harassment in high-sec. But, we will be paying very close attention and if this becomes an issue we can pursue options to improve the situation such as turning safetyGÇÖs on for Alphas in high sec or making changes to the allowed skills list. After checking the terms of service, harassment of other players in the game is still not allowed. My guess is, this should rather have read "non consensual combat". Still I'd like to ask: Are there any plans or discussions to re-evaluate suicide ganking or other forms of non consensual combat as harassment? Suicide ganking is not harassment. Following another player around and ganking them from system to system, even when the target has made an effort to get away from you...that would probably be considered harassment. Suicide gankers take targets of opportunity--i.e. you make yourself a target, they gank you. They will not fixate on you unless you repeatedly make yourself a juicy stupid target repeatedly in the systems they are in. So you should maybe sit down and re-read the EULA and TOS. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5163	Posted - 2016.09.01 05:26:12 - [38] - Quote c00x wrote: corporation management ? so not only unlimited lame named toons but also corporations? corporations that can be used for war decs or avoiding war decs? ccp you took all honor out of having an old toon with skill injectors/extractors... and now you want us to put up with this? Looking at my calendar... nope its not the 1st of april. I find it funny....overall I'm fine with this, but a young whipper snapper like you is butthurt...kinda makes me laugh. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5163	Posted - 2016.09.01 06:33:10 - [39] - Quote Atrox Wagner wrote: As a subscribed player since 2007 with breaks from time to time because of RL i have mixed feelings about how @ccp does the F2P. On one hand i'm happy i won't have extra costs, on the other i'm pissed i won't have access to my stuff while i'm un-subbed. Note: I have only 2 accounts, one subbed and one unsubbed because i have no use for it currently. So this is what i propose: ALPHAS - access to T2 small & medium - guns / armor / shield / miners - a cood idea is to block alphas on SAFETY no aggression unless attacked - limit access to T2 skills that effect T2 modules to max level 4 [like max Medium Blaster Specialisation would be 4] - access to maximum of T1 frigate / destroyer / cruiser hulls [racial only] + mining barges - triple or quadruple NPC tax - this would hinder the ISK farmers, that would probably train ventures & mine the entire HighSec after DT. - only on this type of alpha clonse, make an aura POP-up that would ask the player what characters are written on a certain image [capcha]. this would happen only after 30 minutes of same type of activity [or actually make the timer on the popup random each time] [mining for example] and if the player doesn't enter the correct text into the box, you log them off - this way OMEGAS won't be hindered by lag if there's a large amount of afk alpha miners somewhere in the system. BONUSES for ALPHAS maybe? - if alpha subscribes offer them 2 skill INJECTORS or something that would help them, idk OMEGAS - obviously nothing changes will be as sub based - imo, tho not sure how everybody feels about this, reduce cost of monthly subscription, this would probably make people sub for 6 or 12 months at least in one go with direct payment, and will probably keep hard earned isk for blowing up spaceships rather than throwing it on plex. this would probably reduce cost of plex and imma be primary for a while but whatever it's just an idea. All above ideas came to mind considering the fact that maybe i will create an Alpha account at some point that will complement my main and secondary account. Imo i think they are fair but i would like to know what the community thinks. ^ posted this in another place, but it belongs here, sorry. Huuhhh...no, no T2 for Alphas, not for guns at any rate. There are now gun/missile spec skills on the list. And no to T2 armor hardners either. Maybe you should read the Devblog? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5163	Posted - 2016.09.01 06:37:20 - [40] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: I can only assume that CCP are doing this as they are in severe financial straits so really I suspect I am leaving a sinking ship. As I said in another post, any form of f2p and I shall retire from the game, unfortunately my sub does not expire until the middle of next year, then I am finished with Eve. Take care all. Technically it won't ever expire. Shouldn't you wait to see what harm this actually causes before quitting? No, best option is to make wild ass claims about what people will do based on the most outlandish assumptions...then proclaim the game is dying, then post a hurf-blurf post about quitting because....well....because. Dammit! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5165	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:21:57 - [41] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: IcewaterKat wrote: So the decision for free to play means end of life, like it does for every other game that goes that route. Wanna be top dog, well pay to win is the way to go. I hate PTW games, it's just pathetic. So does this mean that EVE is turning into FarmVille? Obviously not, but I can see Alpha corps kicking more butt than paying customers. There is no long any point for casual players to pay EVE any more, unless they just have to fly a tech 2 ship. I see that any skill that an Alpha Clone can use symbolizes 'nerfed' skills. A lot of those level 4 skills are quite powerful and Level 5 anything is just overkill for what is allowed. The level of irresponsible griefing that actual paid players can and some most certainly will without consequence, will exceed the level of what CCP will expect. You know we all surprise you with what we pull off already, if we can use it as an exploit for profit or revenge, it will be done with the skills that will surpass expectation. __TL;DR__ I'm not mad. Nope. not yet. I'll wait until November for that. I'm disappointed. Not once was an attempt made to lower the price of subscriptions to try to encourage new players to come to Eve. Truly disappointed and a bit ashamed that I pay to play EVE Online. Yeah, agree 100%. Especially after 8+ years of paying sub. DMC Has the price of a sub gone up? No. Has there been inflation? Yes? So the real cost of a subscription has gone down. An inflation adjusted subscription price is $19.55, stop whining like a bunch of pussies. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5165	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:30:29 - [42] - Quote Cmdr Clawhammer wrote: I have an secound account with 3 characters. All of them are skilled for planetary interaction (And nothing elese happens here). Can i still use and manage my pi with this account in alpha state? Thanks for the information. No. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5165	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:32:52 - [43] - Quote Servant Lord's wrote: After reviewing the dev blog 3 times I think this isn't so bad like people make it out as. In worst case CCP could always remove this change and go back to the old model? Correct, notice that all the doom and gloomers are using examples that are very extreme (100 alt accounts to try and cash in on SP trading, 20 accounts of T1 logi, etc.). Basically, they have nothing serious so they are going for the bullshit and lots of it hoping something will stick. They might find something, but so far I don't see it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:45:12 - [44] - Quote Also claims of mineral prices crashing are highly over wrought as well. Sure it might happen, but considering that mineral prices and the economy were fine back when we had a peak of 50,000 players logged in, I doubt this is going to suddenly change. It might, but those predicting this have absolutely no evidence and are just resorting to absurd claims. One of the key aspects of this is how many new players will there be as a result of this? 25,000 logged in? Great, we'll go back to where we were about 2-3 years ago. Will this mean economic catastrophe? Don't be so fecking absurd. Back in 2013 the average PCU was 48,000. The average PCU now? 20,000. So all the hystronics about T1 production, minerals and the like are just simply bullshit. Literally bullshit. Lies spewed by people who are ignorant and do not know what they are talking about. With more players there will also be an increased demand for T1 modules and ships. Therefore, there will also be more demand for minerals. There will also likely be more ships destroyed meaning which is also good for ship, module and mineral demand. Anyone who thinks more players in game is bad is a complete blinkered moron. The claims of catastrophe are also wildly exaggerated claims based on outlers and non-standard behavior as if it were the norm. Now, could this be bad? Sure it could. But I have yet to see a claim that is not based on histrionics and nonsense. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:51:23 - [45] - Quote Also.... Many of these concerns can be solved by simply limiting this F2P option or putting more limitatins on F2P. Put the Alpha clones to green or yellow for safety...fine (although I prefer yellow to give them some PvP options in HS). Limit the number of logins? Fine. Limit the number of logins with Omegas? Fine. Make sure they can't get in certain faction ships via loopholes, fine. These are details, IMO and nothing game breaking. People who want to "stop this" need to come up with a game breaking problem. And a problem based on $3,000 initial outlay is not reasonable. Sure it might happen, and some players with stupid is ISK could do something weird like having 100 accounts to generate a pathetic amount of ISK after 12 months...whatever. Come up with something truly game breaking that isn't breath-takingly stupid right out of the box. That is what would be helpful. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:52:11 - [46] - Quote Cmdr Clawhammer wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Cmdr Clawhammer wrote: I have an secound account with 3 characters. All of them are skilled for planetary interaction (And nothing elese happens here). Can i still use and manage my pi with this account in alpha state? Thanks for the information. No. But iam able now to have my own mining fleet? Main Omega Char with orca and then 1~3 frigates killing rats + 3~4 mining frigates? Sure, that appears to be an option. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 07:57:27 - [47] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Oh, and another one: free throwaway thrashers instapopping small frigs and capsules. Where is the problem you ask? NO CONSEQUENCE. Biomass and be at it again in 3 hours tops. Biomassing because of negative sec status is kinda frowned upon, IIRC. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 08:01:15 - [48] - Quote BTW, has anyone in this thread looked at this graph? Link Hopefully that link works... If not, just go here and look at the data since about 2011. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 08:06:33 - [49] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Still cannot get away from my initial feelings, this just introduces people to be farmed as easy kill cannon fodder.... And here we have Johnny One-Note. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5166	Posted - 2016.09.01 08:14:01 - [50] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Still cannot get away from my initial feelings, this just introduces people to be farmed as easy kill cannon fodder.... And here we have Johnny One-Note. I see you are trolling this thread with your lame posts Maybe you and your boyfriend Ripard should get a room... Yeah, more new players are bad because they might get ganked. Obvious solution: less new players. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5175	Posted - 2016.09.01 16:06:43 - [51] - Quote David Grogan wrote: if this goes ahead jf/freighter runs will get expensive real fast. imagine uedema to niarja full of alpha account gankers. no freighter/jf will get through step 1 bump freighter/jf step 2 gank webber step 3 gank freighter jf lol With a JF you jump over Uedama. Problem solved. That's what I do. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5175	Posted - 2016.09.01 16:15:34 - [52] - Quote EvilweaselSA wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Yes, on average you can pay for your sub, but the problem with averages is that some months you won't and you'll shell out nearly $1500 to keep the game going. you still can't remember plex exist, even in a post where you discusses plex this is really amazing how badly you want to not be wrong unfortunately for you, today is just like any other day, a day filled with you both metaphorically and literally faceplanting left and right So only the super rich in game can do it. Okay, so we have yet another outlier concern. And in the end you are going to make a small amount of ISK (relatively speaking) since most of what you make will go towards subbing the accounts. Next stupid concern. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5176	Posted - 2016.09.01 17:02:13 - [53] - Quote Emilie Chatelet wrote: Dear CCP, I have a question. I just started playing EVE, with a paid subscription. Will I be given all of those skills for free come November? Or, should I just stop my subscription now, and wait to get them in November? If you skill up those skills and go no further you can let your sub lapse and keep playing as an Alpha. If you go beyond those skills and then let your sub lapse, then any skills not on the Alpha list are "blocked"--i.e. you do not get the benefit of them. So if for example you trained up to a battlecruiser, once you went Alpha you would not get the benefit of that skill and would not be able to fly a battlecruiser. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5177	Posted - 2016.09.01 17:44:39 - [54] - Quote Lothar Mandrake wrote: THIS STINKS ON SO MANY LEVELS! BAD MOVE CCP! Can you imagine Jita? It already lags so bad and now you are letting the..... I'll be nice this time and not finish that sentence. I just threw out all the jump clone modules in my citadels in preparation for this mess. Hopefully, we can lock all of them up somewhere in 1 system. Careful CCP, you are starting to act like Lameloft (Gameloft). That company is trash, don't follow in their footsteps. We love our pay to play EVE, please leave it as it has been for over a decade!!! PLEX prices are going to CRASH! I pay for multiple accounts for my family members, now I don't have to. Good job CCP, you will lose SO much money in gameplay purchases. Oh for God's sake.... Jita is not nearly as bad as it was when there were 2x as many people logging on during peak hours. I have not been locked out of Jita due to people in system in ages. I have not had my Jita alt moved to Perimeter due to number of people already in system in ages. And yes you can let your subs expire....and lose access to all your Omega skills (assuming you still play the game). "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5177	Posted - 2016.09.01 17:47:59 - [55] - Quote Lothar Mandrake wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: MidnightWyvern wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Martin Corwin wrote: So trials are just getting an upgrade from 21 days to unlimited time. Meh. Wake me up when there's real news. Pretty much what is happening yes I'm so happy more people are starting to realize this. It's really not going to change anything that much. We'll just have more people to play with. Why do you think I've largely keep quiet on the topic. It's a red herring, a deeply concerning one but far from the deathly shrieking some think it is. Also might be a faint, to thin the old guard somewhat (shah,dmc don't go, im right with you on principle but don't become martyr's because ye don't like the the weather forecasts) This is bad! You can't reverse this decision. Pandora's box on steroids. PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW TRAINING ON ANY SKILL PAST LEVEL 1 AT LEAST!!!! That will limit the damage these "free players" can do. Sure you can. And read the DevBlog, Alpha clones will have a limited set of skills. None of which they can train to lvl 5, some to lvl 3. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5177	Posted - 2016.09.01 18:45:04 - [56] - Quote Ginger Naari wrote: James Duadoulin wrote: Querns wrote: Regarding this question in the Q&A: Quote: Q: Are there restrictions on simultaneous log on for Alpha Clones? It seems pretty obvious that you should NOT allow multiple alpha clones to be logged in simultaneously from one computer. Allowing this means that I, with a sufficiently powerful computer, can spin up a functionally unlimited number of characters with Mining Frigate trained, and use them to mine unburdened by the PLEX cost that would apply today. This would have the effect of reducing the cost of minerals to, functionally, zero, completely ruining a moderately healthy style of PVE. lol how many of us have laptops capable of playing eve in addition to our gaming rig? i know i have 3 laptops in addition to my gaming rig. only if they limit it by IP address will they be able to regulate it into uselessness. still doesnt stop a player from using free alts as ammo dumps. fit up a t1 hauler with t1 expanders scout your free alt into the area you intend to do PVE and pvp have them filled up with extra ammo and hull reps/ armor reps. log them off. now when you are in a region you only have to fly to the system you logged your alt off in log your alt in. have it jetison the ammo or repairers you need and then log off again. could save a crap ton of time for mission runners and pvpers who dont want to fly all the way home to refit and repair. we will find ways to use them . i can already see myself having at least 3 of them just for ammo dumps in the regions i operate in. maybe another as an uncloaky scout/ scanning ship. Please...the screaming masses will never understand that not everyone is thinking about unlimited skill farms/miners/gank alts in fleets of 50 from every computer.. Personally I think they are mostly butt hurt over them paying for 2/3/4 and more accounts for years, but now someone is getting accounts for free, accounts that they can do a lot of things in that they'll never risk their indy alt doing...not realising ofc that they could actually make a couple of alts which are entirely disposable to try stuff they can't or won't risk an Omega account doing. Not only that but how would you control 3 let alone 10 or 20 alts from 3 (or 10 or 20) different computers. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5178	Posted - 2016.09.01 18:58:41 - [57] - Quote Lasisha Mishi wrote: so i recently talked to my clan from Star Trek Online, Archeage, and WoT and asked them if they would be willing to try EVE if the trial didn't have a time limit on it. they were REALLY confused when i explained the skill lock/limits and stuff. but overall most agreed they'd be up to try it out . not sure how many will stay once they learn how dangerous EVE is, but i'm sure some will find the appeal in it i have. so +1 for this move CCP. and i'll give more +1s once we get to the point when i teach these guys the harsh reality of EVE.....aka don't trust anyone(they half expect me to kill them at some point from the stories i've told them) can't w8 for this update to come Same, I have a coworker who plans on trying it out. He realizes exactly how brutal the game can be in terms of player interaction, so not worried about that. What kept him away was RL would often keep him away and the thought of paying a sub for a game he was not able to play regularly was not appealing. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5178	Posted - 2016.09.01 19:00:56 - [58] - Quote MAS0RAKSH wrote: Ginger Naari wrote: James Duadoulin wrote: Querns wrote: Regarding this question in the Q&A: [quote] Q: Are there restrictions on simultaneous log on for Alpha Clones? characters with Mining Frigate trained, and use them to mine unburdened by the PLEX cost that would apply today. This would have the effect of reducing the cost of minerals to, functionally, zero, completely ruining a moderately healthy style of PVE. but to remove mining frigate, mining, and reprocessing removes the ability for actual new alphas to make isk when they've lost everything. is it possible to lock their mining lasers to not work in 0.0? Sooo...lets just make it a truly awful extended trial? Am I reading you correctly? And maybe no to the mining lasers in NS because maybe some might go there, mine stuff and see how much more ISK there is and want to live in NS and sub. Or they'll get killed, and see how exciting it is and want to sub. Or...quit...but then it's just an Alpha. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5180	Posted - 2016.09.01 19:11:44 - [59] - Quote James Duadoulin wrote: 3 alts on 3 different computers is fairly easy when they are only scouts. (and you could also train them up on drones and have them assign drones to your main. its a force multiplier. ratting HAVENS in 2-3 min by virtue of 20 drones following your commands. granted they are T1 but you can still faction fit those vexors. once the drones are assigned the otehr accounts requre no input except for monitoring ship hp and drone health levels. go into wormhole scan down all wh exits pop your alts 1000km off of each hole. you have instant feedback if anyone enters system same thing that used to be done with cloaky camera alts except its live and they are actually vulnerable since they cant cloak. That's true, but when that bad guy comes and lands in your sanctum.... you are pretty much stuck there or you will lose 1-3 of your ratting vexors. And once that happened, if it were me, I'd be coming back regularly to pay you a visit. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5180	Posted - 2016.09.01 19:15:08 - [60] - Quote Dibble Dabble wrote: I am not sure if this has been asked but will Alpha clones / accounts have full access to the forums or will this be reserved for paid for accounts only? It has been asked, not sure of an answer.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5184	Posted - 2016.09.01 23:50:45 - [61] - Quote Andrea Cemenotar wrote: ok guys thing is really simple here: single scenario: you have newcommer alpha clone player, he hooks up into the game and at some point decides to.. lets say go for some low sec PvP so he grabs his t1 desroyer, fit it with t1 fit, maybe if was lucky to receive proper instruction he'll load it with factional ammo [he should have access to that, right?] so he goes to the lowsec, and is utterly anihilated by the very first assault frig he meets, or even better a tactical destroyer he looks up the ship that pwned him and realise that looking by numbers, that ship is superior to his - now blown to pieces t1 dessie. also he realises that he cannot use it until he pays real money [or farm for plex] at this point possibility of two possible outcomes can emerge: if he started playing game believing EvE has turned f2p, [which is possible for th moment being considering all the press forgetting actuall definitions of stuff and not-so-straight-way-of-CCP-saying-things] he WILL find it extremely p2w [let us remember we talk here about 100% fresh player with decent ability to use his brain] the other case - if he was for the whole time fully aware that alpha clone is nothing more than trial account wihout time limit slapped ontop of it, he won't get the wrong idea about game being p2w, will move on and is more likely to consider buying the sub on the later date to enjoy those shinier toys. What is really important now though is for CCP to properly accent the truth about alpha clones, before people will flock to "now-f2p-eve" only to start spewing crosss the internetz how eve is "p2w rubbish" And lets further assume he pays a sub, gets into a svipul, and then heads off to LS and....gets blown to smithereens again, now by 2 guys in some other ships he has not yet skilled..... A sub is not pay to win. It is pay for more access. And are we really to believe that this will not be made abundantly clear to players when they are registering? I suppose they could just ignore any such messaging, but isn't that kind of on them? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5185	Posted - 2016.09.02 07:22:32 - [62] - Quote Toobo wrote: You know what all these Alpha toons are gonna call Omega toons? Pay to win! When all these Alpha toons see current players (Soon to be Omega pilots) flying and using things they can't on a free account, and stomping all over them everywhere, they will not think EVE is F2P game, they will see itnas Pay To Win game. So ironically, EVE will become pay to win by allowing F2P lol. So let me get this staright..... CCP gives players a way to play an unlimited trial account for no RL money. But because years ago I decided to pay for a sub and train my characters I'm....cheating? Of course, CCP has given these guys a way to catch up to me instantly, yes it means opening up one's wallet. Seems only fair given that I have spent quite a bit of RL money to get where I am, requiring a new player to "instantly" catch to cost RL money....my God what a crazy idea. How about you grow up and learn how things work both in game and in RL? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5185	Posted - 2016.09.02 07:27:58 - [63] - Quote Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Think long and hard on this one CCP, you actually can mess up a lot if you don't do this one right. Bringing new players in the game will refresh everything, but it has to be made successfully. I saw some games go down after wrong updates. CCP wants to introduce a change and Omega clones = win in every cases because you're so free with them. It's not pay to win. The alpha clones are just the candy to attract new players. Yeah, because my main has over 137 million SP I always win. Always. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5185	Posted - 2016.09.02 18:34:47 - [64] - Quote Toobo wrote: I am very familiar with WOW. Before I quit I clocked up over 150 days of play time on my main toon. That's 3,600 hours of game play. If you play 8 hours a day for 5 days a week (like a job), that equates to 22 months of playing WOW like a full time job. And I will tell you what'a different from WOW and EVE. 1. WOW has enjoyable PVE contents, quests and world to explore at low level (e.g. Up to lvl 20). The opening sequences of WOW is delightful. Each class and faction and ethnicity has its own rich environment that's crafted with high level of detail, from gestures to sound track, city/landscape, dialogues, etc. Don't get me wrong. I love EVE and all its lore and chronicles, and have read all the published novels. I'm also aware that each faction has different NPCs and station types, etc. But you can't seriously compare what's available in WOW as a PVE experience for a low level player and what PVE EVE offers at that level (or even at higher lvl to be honest). Even just looking at combat mechanism vs NPC rats, WOW has combos and skill sequence and DPS cycles and all that interactive things. EVE solo PVE is all about target lock and activate all mods and wait till the target dies. If it was WOW that would be like a Rogue killing an NPC using no combos and timed skills, you know, just using default ' hit' only. EVE has ewar, but you don't time it to use it at the 'right moment' (at least definitely not in solo lvl 1 missions). You keep the target painter on the target from the moment you lock him till he dies. If it was WOW, you'd need to juggle different ewar applications at the right moments to maximise DPS. EVE is not like that. For EVE, there is no appeal in continuing low level PVE contentse. I would rather go back to killing 1,000 spiders as a Rogue in WOW than do 1,000 lvl 1 missions in T1 fit frigate. Even For harvesting - would you rather go around in Azeroth collecting 1,000 items spread across the map with random spawn points, or you want to mine 1 billion units of Veldspar in a static belt, and 'do it in a Kestrel' We love EVE, but let's be fair, low level PVE contents in EVE is no where near varied/interesting as WOW. I don't want to make it sound like WOW > EVE, obviously I managed to quit WOW but can't quit EVE so I know which game I love more, but low level PVE wise EVE simply cannot compete with WOW, especially to the 'casual/mainstream' playerbase. 2. Then we have PVP. Yes, PVP in EVE is awesome. And this is what makes EVE great and keep the core player base subbed for long long time. But bear in mind that even on PVP servers in WOW, battleground and arena pretty much killed any serious 'world pvp'. People spent more time in instanced dungeons and battlegrounds than out in the world, especially once they have done all the field quests and reached the max level. But that works for level capped players, because WOW has level capped battlefields. EVE doesn't do 'instanced battlefield' - there are FW sites restricted to ship types but it's not capped by SP. And although FW had been pretty popular, for EVE, I think most people will agree that the real fun PVP is world PVP. This is totally different from WOW. Limited players will be fully exposed to vets ready to farm them in the open PVP world, not only for KM, but to get them on comms and make them sing and record and post it on youtube and humiliate them on reddit and make a lol meme pic to pass on to the next generation. I'm not wearing beer goggles. WOW and EVE have some fundamental differences, different to the extent that a successful marketing/PR strategy for one could be a disaster for the other. Because Eve is a PvP centered game. The PvE is there as a way to enable PvP. People don't PvE because it is super awesome and fun, they do it to afford ships, modules and ammo so they can shoot each other. And Vets just don't fly around farming noobs. We kill indiscriminately. New player? Yep, we'll kill him. Old player? Yep, we'll kill him. Middle aged player? Kill him too. Don't care what your age is in game...we'll kill ya. And in turn us vets get killed by new players, old players, and everything in between. Vets also form groups that are comprised of characters of different ages too so we also help new players, old players and everything in between. Eve is not just about wholesale slaughter, it is much more than that it is actually and example of spontaneous order. My guess is WOW has very little spontaneous order because the game is so structured. Eve has structure, but alot of if is created by the players. For example there are the rental empires, OTEC, B0TLORD, RvB, Eve Uni, and coalitions just to name some off the top of my head. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5185	Posted - 2016.09.02 18:41:40 - [65] - Quote Ginger Naari wrote: Just released.... https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/clone-states-post-announcement-follow-up/ From the link.... Quote: Probably the clearest point to emerge so far has been a request to limit simultaneous log on for Alphas. The concern here is obviously justified as swarms of free alts could potentially have any number of negative effects on the game. That said, thereGÇÖs significant complexity here, especially on the technical side. We are exploring options to address this and also consulting our security and customer support team, as most of the negative behavior would depend on multi-plexing or automation, both of which are big no-no's. But, when you guys say you will find ways to break it we believe you, so, weGÇÖre looking at our options and will update you when we settle on an approach. Coming in a close second is suicide ganking and other forms of high-sec harassment. As we mentioned in the Q and A, we know we can use the safety system to ensure there wonGÇÖt be a problem if we need to, but we still arenGÇÖt sure if that will be necessary. This write up does a good job showing why Alpha Clones may not make ganking more prevalent. ItGÇÖs a tricky topic and we look forward to talking it through with the CSM as well as watching more of your feedback over the coming weeks. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5187	Posted - 2016.09.03 04:51:43 - [66] - Quote Crack Spawn wrote: Elite Dangerous - you need a bounty scan module before you can go around legally shooting people :P So remove all bounties from eve info card. Introduce module scan to show bounty like cargo scanner. Buy license from Concord [monthly] based on bounty amount/scale 100k to 50mil bounty = x amount and so on. In local chat introduce a war target type marking so you know a bounty hunter in system based on active license. Bounty will be paid on amount of bounty not percentage of ship cost/lost Bounty hunting should be a trade in Eve. These are just some quick basic thoughts on the bounty system. As CCP don't pay for ideas not my job but this is or could be good to introduce NEW content into eve. I'm sure with some thought Bounty hunting and HiSec mercenaries, War Decing, Espionage could be good and enjoyable if only CCP would just spend some time on the subjects, right now that's 4 NEW content Upgrades CCP could make. EDIT The biggest problem which I think CCP are overlooking, there is no way to PVP unless you spend hours missioning or mining. Most games you can pvp and earn money from it, so bounty hunting or War Decing could open a new way to earn play and have fun ? just needs some thought that's all So...you place a bounty on me, right? What is to stop me (the player) from having my alt scan my character's ship, shoot me and collect the bounty? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5187	Posted - 2016.09.03 04:56:58 - [67] - Quote beakerax wrote: Malcanis wrote: If you can come up with a bounty system that's not trvially exploitable, go for it. I think the pointless/exploitable dichotomy with bounties is at least partly a result of their public availability. It would be neat to be able to set up bounty pools with (optional) access lists. For example, Corp A could set up a 30% bounty on Corp B's ship losses (perhaps capped at a certain amount) only available to their own members (or some trustworthy third party, or whatever). There is nothing stopping this now, if I understand your suggestion. Such a system would be an inverse of the SRP programs many corporations/alliances already have. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5187	Posted - 2016.09.03 05:34:40 - [68] - Quote FireFrost wrote: so ya its a rough choice - id personaly just cap the plexs so normal players can buy them , the lower price would allow people to pay for a sub with little effort and would not lead to hordes of ticked off paying players for losing a 2-3 bil ship to a free loader . Yeah, no. Price controls rarely work like you are talking about. What typically happens when the price is set below the current market power is alot more people want to buy and alot more people who would sell stop. This creates a situation known as excess demand--i.e. a shortage. See, at a price of say 250,000,000 ISK 50 people might be willing to buy PLEX and sell them. But 250 people might want to buy those PLEX. So this leaves 200 people without PLEX. And of these 200 people, 190 might be willing to buy at 260 million, and 180 at 270 million and so forth. So no, in the end people would not be able to pay for a sub for little effort because the PLEX simply won't be there. The price system works moving buyers and sellers to a point where the number of buyers and sellers are close together. And nobody tells them how to do this. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 05:07:11 - [69] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Malcanis wrote: Ima Wreckyou wrote: Daylan Vokan wrote: EvE is a subscription game that is going to adopt a free play mode instead of limited time trial, If the alpha gets to a point where he wants to join the ranks of Omega's he subscribes - Not pay2win. If it was that it had for instance for a payment of : 20 dollars for 30 days access to 3x damage mods 30 dollars for 15 days access to 2x accelerated leaning ^^ pay2win^^ Read and inwardly digest meanings before spouting doomsday prophecies How about: 15 dollars for 30 days access to t2 weapons and ships (and even more!! Packagedeal!!1!) Would that qualify as well as pay2win or why not? For the reason that is literally explained in the post you quoted. So it is basically pay2win then, since there is literally no difference between the three suggested examples except maybe from a price point. I know one of them is special because EVE has a "subscription model" but it is special for you and the current EVE Online player, not the new player expecting a free2play game. And they will expect a free2play game, also it is clearly the intention of CCP to make EVE appear as free2play to get new customers, why else would they even bother to implement this change in the first place? Do you really expect the new players which will recognise the "15 dollars for 30 days access to t2 weapons" as a massive pay2win paywall to "get it" and just say "ah, it used to be subscription model game, so it's ok and not greedy as ***"? Also SP injectors, the other big extremely expensive paywall. I am not here to whine about EVE becoming "pay2win". I am seriously concerned how this will look for a new player expecting a free2play game. And you can write all day "it's not free2play.. blah blah blah.." tell that to the new players who will not read the dev blog or your arguments on the forums and just the headline in some computer game magazine "EVE now free2play". I seriously doubt this will work. I also seriously doubt CCP is finished. I am almost sure this is another incremental step in changing EVE to a full free2play game. The SP extractor change was the start and this is not the end. They probably roll this changes out one per year to not drive away the current subscriber base. Also we can write stuff all day here, it's not like CCP will change it's plans because of us. I think they may even be aware of the problem and maybe already have the plan to fix this ready in the drawer, and that is probably what concerns me the most. Every Free2Play game I have tried (admittedly not many as I saw the handwriting on the wall) was "Pay2Win" in the sense that by going to your wallet you: progressed faster got better damage dealing ammo/weapons/items In fact, in World of Tanks the various clans or what ever they were called it was required you used gold ammo--i.e. it was expected that you paid to gain entry into the upper echelons of the game. In other words, these games were: You decide to pay to gain access to certain aspects of the game....or you don't. Eve is going the same route. You pay to gain access to T2, cross racial training and even a larger array of T1 ships. Of course, you won't get there any faster though. Now you are telling me that a player coming into Eve is going to be shocked, shocked* that unless they open their wallet they'll be limited....like every other Free2Play game out there? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 05:11:33 - [70] - Quote Flickinator DIRK wrote: I don't think this well help EVE to much, I've been playing since 213 and still trying to learn how to pvp. The learning curb is far to complicated for most. My son started playing EVE, but found that you end up in the grind to make isk. He just started plexying for in game isk to fund his very expensive ship loss due to trying to pvp, because that's what you expect when you join EVE is to pvp. Even when you go looking for a fight its hard to get one now because most are to worried about loosing there ship. He eventually pulled the pin on the game and says its far to boring. I'm also considering moving on, because I don't think its worth the money you pay for the subscription. I'm also sick of the lag, you need a really good internet speed for this game, something I don't have. There are plenty of games out there on the market that are not so expensive. My God...you have been playing for 1,803 years!?!!?! I think you should petition to have your user name changed the Methuselah. Good luck with your next game though. This game is not for everyone admittedly, although the trick to making it fun and interesting it to have friends in game--i.e. joining a corp, maybe and alliance and even better a coalition. That way there can be lots of stuff going on most of the time. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 05:15:40 - [71] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Aren't a huge bulk of highsec people actually nullbear alts? Good question and one nobody can answer except CCP and they almost surely won't. So maybe we should just skip this one.... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 05:23:35 - [72] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Once (actual) Alpha players hit the servers, the prices for cruiser-and-below meta items are going to drop, simply from the number of people who have heard that you can buy game time by playing, and choosing to farm L2 & L3 missions. They have heaps of time to gather the price of one PLEX. So let me see if I follow you.... So Alphas are going to hit the game. Learn you can actually get a sub via PLEX and do so via running L2/3 missions? Right? And then sell all the goodies to get those PLEX...which will in turn drive down the price of these meta items? Only one problem, to get that much ISK via L2/3s you'll have to run ALOT of them. Second of all, there will be 2 other forces constraining these players. 1. The increased demand for PLEX will force up the price of PLEX. 2. The increase in supply of meta items will drop the price of meta items making it harder to get PLEX. Markets tend to be self-correcting in the sense that there are profits and losses, or costs and benefits. Each action comes with both a cost and a benefit. So it is not clear that we'll see much movement of either aside from some short run volatility. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 06:24:13 - [73] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Every Free2Play game I have tried (admittedly not many as I saw the handwriting on the wall) was "Pay2Win" in the sense that by going to your wallet you: progressed faster got better damage dealing ammo/weapons/items Well, there are free2play titles who will sell only vanity items and no items which change the game play. There are some who only accelerate progress. And there are some who sell gold ammo and those are called pay2win (like t2 weapons behind a paywall). Players recognise the difference. They will not buy all the seriously far fetched arguments about "it some kind of subscription based game thing.. it is basically an extended trial.. why are you looking at me this way?". In EVE you will basically have all of the above: - permanent vanity items for cash - non-permanent access to gold ammo for cash - SP (skill progress) for cash What I try to say is basically, it looks seriously greedy for a free2play title! And new players will instantly see that given the price points of the above mentioned "paywalls". This is my last post about this. There is no point in discussing it anymore I think. CCP will do whatever they want anyway and I am sure I will find some use for the new system as well. Fresh accounts with an alpha clone make greate corp infiltration toons and I always wanted to try that Sorry, not buying it. World of Tanks and World of Warships are still going strong last I checked and they are absolutely fitting with what you describe. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 06:29:37 - [74] - Quote Axyl Drake wrote: And then, for someone experiencing this game, perhaps buying their first frigate with the small amount of isk they had earned missioning, mining, or granted by a corp member, to go out and be slaughtered by a ship they don't even have access to would set them off like crazy and raise pay to win flags everywhere. Aside from the pay to win issue...how else to you imagine people dying? Honorable 1v1 fights? Most ships I kill were in horrible lop sided fights were some hapless schlub got caught in our gate camp, by our gang, etc. Even the larger engagements they were when our FCs felt we had the upper hand in terms of fleet composition and capability. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 07:03:41 - [75] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: Malcanis wrote: There's no way to reason people out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. That's not a reason to act unreasonably yourself. Well I am glad for you that you are not concerned about this change. It's just a bit sad you don't actually address any points and show where I'm wrong. Instead you seam pretty convinced that there is no problem, hence your smartass-comments which contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion. Care to share your view about why you are so convinced new players will not perceive this as greedy pay2win? I know you addressed this to Malcanis...but hey this is an internet forum. I always see "free to play" as "free to paly" with strings. Those strings were always variable too. That is you never knew if you had to spend $5/month or $50/month on any given month. Depending on the game the out of pocket expenses were variable. I liked Eve because I knew the out-of-pocket expense was fixed. For $x/month (depending on your subscription choice) you got the whole thing. There was no nickel-and-diming. Eve will still be that way...mostly. You can get the whole ting for $x/month if you decide to make that transition. Of course, you might not want to wait for training to finish and CCP has given players who want to not wait that time....and can afford it an option there too. Same thing with ISK. And as one player noted, the important thing (and unlike every other F2P/P2W game out there) nothing is created out of thin air. Some might decry the skill injectors and PLEX as ways for new players to skill up and get ISK. I see it as a way for players who either don't want to wait or don't have the time to by-pass that constraint. Yes it will cost them RL money if they are new, and yes, some players who can't afford it might be upset. But seriously is EVE supposed to be where we address social wrongs? I don't think so. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 08:08:24 - [76] - Quote Carniflex wrote: As noted .. the internet forums ;) Anyway on the subject of pay-to-win vs free-to-play. In my perception the line between these two runs according to following logic. In a "fair" free to play game the free players are theoretically capable of achieving the same level as paying players, just at slower rate. Normally there is also a fair selection of additional cosmetic items available only for cash (like in EVE the ship skins, for example). In a "unfair" free-to-play game (i.e., also called sometimes "gold ammo" games) the paying customers can achieve power levels which are not attainable by just gridning away at the game. If this thing is super tank, or just 5% better gun than anything else available for grinding is not as important as this fundamental aspect itself that there is something available in game that gives a paying customer an in-game edge over non playing one which is not solvable by just grinding away taking the "slow route". Now - as proposed the EVE version is very clearly pay-to-win. To be entirely honest I have no idea how could eve introduce a free to play feature without it being pay-to-win according to this scenario as if they would just outright remove all limitations from the "free" players then it would probably cut quite significantly into their subscription numbers causing some kind of economic shock. My argument is that while pay-to-win can most likely not avoided, as this is after all a subscription game going "free to play" there could be some niche where the free player would be fully (or almost fully) competitive with the paying customers. In my opinion this niche could be frigate combat for following reasons: EVE has pretty well fleshed out frigate exclusive content already with areas that do not permit larger hulls for both PvP and PvE (frig wormholes, FW, L4 burners, for example). Lack of access to cloaking would give the "free" palyers still certain disadvantage in some of these (especially WH's) but other than sisters frigate there is no T1 ships that are effective with cloak fitted as far as I remember. In my opinion this would give the Alpha's the reasobaly full EVE experience in that rather limited niche of frigate exclusive content and allow Alphas to perform at the same level with Omegas when flying a T1 frigate - which should not be a particularly unbalancing thing in EVE. Going up against T2 frigates, destroyers and larger hulls the Alphas would be still at significant disadvantage but at least there would be something in EVE that they can do as well as paying customers. As it stands only thing the Alphas would be as good as Omegas are in the current dev-blog is smacking in local ;) The problem with Eve is that you earn SP in real time whether you are logged in or not. So to make it possible for a F2P player to achieve the same levels as a subbed player they'd have to have a slower training time with NO limits whatsoever. Problem is that unless CCP also starts creating **** out of thin air--i.e. you have to buy faction ammo from CCP, or buy SP from CCP vs. other players, that model probably won't work because hey....somebody has to pay the bills. Also, look at something like World of Tanks, there the game is fairly straight forward with a match maker. There is no such thing in Eve. Part of Eve's allure, which Ima Wreckyou and many other have forgotten is that it is a game about spontaneous order. I find Ima Wreckyou's failure on this part rather disappointing as I consider CODE. an example of such spontaneous order. And what I mean by that is that players doing weird stuff that is not part of the initial package. I have already noted that rental empires, coalitions, OTEC, CODE., B0TLORD, and others are examples of this spontaneous order. Hell, the whole IWantISK vs. Imperium thing is another example. The Forever War between Goons and BoB was yet another example. None of these things depend on T2 modules, ships, skill points or ISK. These were all things that happened between players often times....wait for it...not even in game. IIRC when Haargoth and people in Goonswarm first started talking on voice comms it was outside of the game. Alphas can be part of that. There are groups in EVE that look at new players, there might even be some new groups that spring up from this new policy that currently do not exist. Can some subset of Alphas from their own in game entity and have an impact on the game? Absolutely. Yes, things might need to be fine tuned. The issue of grinding ISK might be an issue. I see CCP as walking a tightrope between their current paying customers and trying to bring in new blood to keep the game interesting. I see this as something that can be iterated upon as well. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 08:11:22 - [77] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Mara Rinn wrote: Once (actual) Alpha players hit the servers, the prices for cruiser-and-below meta items are going to drop, simply from the number of people who have heard that you can buy game time by playing, and choosing to farm L2 & L3 missions. They have heaps of time to gather the price of one PLEX. So let me see if I follow you.... So Alphas are going to hit the game. Learn you can actually get a sub via PLEX and do so via running L2/3 missions? Right? And then sell all the goodies to get those PLEX...which will in turn drive down the price of these meta items? Only one problem, to get that much ISK via L2/3s you'll have to run ALOT of them. Second of all, there will be 2 other forces constraining these players. 1. The increased demand for PLEX will force up the price of PLEX. 2. The increase in supply of meta items will drop the price of meta items making it harder to get PLEX. Markets tend to be self-correcting in the sense that there are profits and losses, or costs and benefits. Each action comes with both a cost and a benefit. So it is not clear that we'll see much movement of either aside from some short run volatility. The supply of meta frigate and cruiser modules is low enough that the prices will come down significantly with even a slight increase in supply. Alphas have little in the way of opportunity cost, they can collect funds over a few months to pay for that PLEX. I am not disputing your assertions and indeed I expect both to be true. That does not preclude players trying to play to pay. The major impact will be affordable high meta level ganking fits. Everybody has opportunity cost. Everything you do has an opportunity cost both in and out of game. Every choice entails opportunity cost. So careful with opportunity costs. The problem I see with your narrative is that it entails both higher demand and higher supply with tend to offset each other, perhaps not perfectly but to some degree at least. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5190	Posted - 2016.09.06 08:20:14 - [78] - Quote Ginger Naari wrote: I haven't read all the arguments about pay 2 win, tbh I got bored after 3 pages of the merry go round Why do players think this game has suddenly become pay 2 win? The way I'm looking at it is that for the last 4 years since I joined you either do a trial and don't sub, or you do a trial and sub, or just discover the game, sub for a month and decide that way. But at no time over those years has converting from a trial account to a full sub been called pay 2 win. So what's changed? They still either sub or don't sub after the change, fine some might sub for a month to try for some more skill points, but they'll lose access to them when that month sub runs out, exactly as they do now. Some will probably be ok with what they have for free and be very happy if they can get into a decent corp with a srp when they go on a roam and lose a ship. But all this negativity....I'm sure any prospective new players reading this and other threads can't wait to join the fun ;/ There is a contingent in this discussion that are worried that the game will be perceived as Pay-to-Win by the new players coming in under the supposed Free-to-Play mode. Their argument is that it is not really Free-to-Play, but more of an unlimited trial period. You can play as long as you want without opening your wallet, but there are hard constraints on what ships and skills you can use in game if you opt for this option. And to move beyond these limitations...get out the credit card. There is some validity to what they are saying, but then again EVE is not like most other games that are Free-to-Play in that they lack the spontaneous order/emergence aspect that comes with EVE. My example has been World of Tanks with is both Free-to-Play and Pay-to-Win also does not allow for much Spontaneous Order either. The matches are controlled by a Match Maker and there is a fixed number of players on each side. So things like spying, corp thefts, etc. are largely not an issue. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5196	Posted - 2016.09.06 19:02:02 - [79] - Quote Carniflex wrote: [snip] And yeah theoretically all kinds of nice things are accessible to Alphas and in principle they could just bring more of themselves to overcome the extremely limited skillset handicap. But I honestly do believe that as it is currently proposed most potential players would just take a look and not bother with it. I myself, for example, are not willing to invest my time into a game that I perceive as unfair at fundamental level. [snip] I donGÇÖt see the issue with fairness here. I do not think players not paying a monthly sub should get the same access I and others who do pay a monthly sub get. That is the way it is in any F2P/P2W game. Is your suggestion that Alpha clones have exactly the same access as Omega clonesGÇöi.e. there is no distinction at all? If so, great IGÇÖm cancelling my subscriptions as will just about everyone else, and by December we wonGÇÖt be playing Eve Online at all. Here is the other thing. If you say, well Alphas have no skill cap, but slower training times. Guess what IGÇÖm un-subbing again. Why? My main has 137 million SP. IGÇÖm done worrying about training new things at max speed. I can fly all the logistics ships, all the HACs, all the T3 cruisers and destroyers, there arenGÇÖt may ships I canGÇÖt get into. So IGÇÖll unsub and just stop paying. So again, do this and by January maybe February weGÇÖll be done playing Eve Online again. Somebody has to pay the bills and provide the gameGÇªand that is the Omega customers. If the Alphas donGÇÖt like that we are paying the bills for the server they are connecting tooGÇªthen become and Omega cloneGÇöi.e. get out your wallet and help support the game. Or continue to free ride and put up with the limitations. There is no issue with regards to fairness it is about paying for the damn game. All this talk of fairness is starting to smack of people who want to free ride. But every one free rides...nobody free rides. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5197	Posted - 2016.09.06 19:15:41 - [80] - Quote Carniflex wrote: Given the nature of EVE I do not think it can be avoided that a person who has been around longer has more skills / knowledge / assets and has an advantage over a fresh member of the community. Reduced training speed / assets gaining is de facto standard in free to play games for free accounts - even in games that are considered generally fair and well balanced from the viewpoint of micro transactions. Then it will have to apply to everyone. That is the default is everyone becomes an Alpha clone, skill points are created out of thin air by CCP, as are pretty much everything elseGÇöi.e. kiss goodbye the market too. And I bet people will still be here crying because I have 137 million SP on my main and DONGÇÖT have to P2W. TheyGÇÖll be complaining that they have to pay to catch up. See the posts by the player named Dror. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5197	Posted - 2016.09.06 19:18:55 - [81] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: So...you place a bounty on me, right? What is to stop me (the player) from having my alt scan my character's ship, shoot me and collect the bounty? What about system where bounty owner has to manually approve each payment? Let's say i put bounty on someone. This sets flag (visible to anyone). Then when somebody presses the button and kills the target i get notification with killmail. Then i enter amount and press button and send ISK or don't. And let's say people can see history of bounty contracts created by me (it can be made anonymous but linked to the character) with information about every bounty contract offered and killmails paid or not. This allows me to check whether killmail looks legit or not. At least i can try to detect usage of alt. This gives possible contractor to check whether previous bounties were paid or not and decide if kill worth effort. Additionally this gives some protection from overinflated module/ship prices and gives overall control over the system to players. I see killmail value but i always can check real market price and set bounty accordingly. And if i'm greedy then in future i can find none of my contracts taken. Thoughts? So, I as an actual bounty hunter can expect to get screwed on a regular basis. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5202	Posted - 2016.09.07 08:04:37 - [82] - Quote Carniflex wrote: [giant snip] Look, the point of going "free-to-play" is not to satisfy your notion of social justice or some other bullshit. It is an attempt to: 1. Get more players in game. 2. Get more players who pay subs. 3. Keep the damn lights on. So take all your "it isn't fair nonsense" and grow up. k' thanks bye. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5215	Posted - 2016.09.09 04:35:45 - [83] - Quote Carniflex wrote: Soltys wrote: Hiro Mune wrote: So essentially: You can't explore; no cloaking You can't PVP; no tech 2 weaponry PVE will be limited Null sec and low sec will be impossible to go into... Might as well stick with the subscription to actually enjoy the game! Yea it's basically current trial with more constraints and without time limit. For genuinly new players it's probably nice, for anyone else ... yea (putting aside all potential multiboxing / free alts issues aside ...). Current subscribers would find uses for Alphas even if all they could do would be flying a shuttle and talking in local ;) I just do not believe that what is currently on table for Alphas makes the genuinely fresh pilots to stay much longer than the longest done trials would (I.e., a bit above 50 days). At the very minimum the racial restriction should be lifted. Or CCP should make it crystal clear in the beginning that a pilot should roll 4 parallel Alpha accounts - one for each race. Because otherwise I believe there would be non-neglible number of fresh guys joining - figuring out that they would want to fly some other race few weeks down the road and going "screw this, I'm not gonna wait for another 2 weeks for these basic essential skills again to be able to do what I already do" What the Hell, they can always sub too ya know. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5222	Posted - 2016.09.09 20:11:40 - [84] - Quote Ginger Naari wrote: Egsise wrote: I remember when I started Eve I knew it takes years to train the skills. That was actually the biggest reason I started Eve, I wanted to play a game that isn't over in six months like majority of games today. When I ask why someone doesn't play Eve is that they worry that it takes 25 years to train everything to max level, and they could never catch those who have started earlier. Most new players don't understand that the reason why they can't do mission X or win that pvp fight is that they don't have corpmates who fly with them, not the lack of skills. I'm not sure if this is covered so here's my opinion about multiboxing. I think you should not be allowed to log in more than one alpha clone at the time. The alpha clone is targeted to new players and they need to learn that if they need more than one ship, well they need friends then not multiple accounts what they use to solo for six months and then quit Eve because it's boring. If an old player with multiple accounts wants to look what Eve is now, well he doesn't need more than one account at the time for that or to sell assets to plex or just to chat with old corpmates. You shouldn't be allowed to log in an alpha clone with omega clone(s). You are not allowed to do it with trial accounts either. I'll reiterate something, maybe it'll get an answer... I own 4 accounts (3 are playing accounts) If I decide to let 2 lapse into an Alpha state, why EXACTLY shouldn't I be able to log them on along with the remaining Omega account(s) which I own and have subbed for over 4 years? Stopping a player logging on his/her accounts however they like is just stupid. Any present player should be able to take advantage of f2p if he/she needs to without that restriction. Well, the technical aspects of this might be impossible...but from a theory stand point.... Limit it to 1 Alpha acount or 1 Alpha account/Omega Account? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5225	Posted - 2016.09.09 21:00:38 - [85] - Quote Rin Aiko wrote: I will answer. Ccp needs to make money. This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts. @ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains. Guess we will see Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5225	Posted - 2016.09.09 21:12:18 - [86] - Quote Ginger Naari wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rin Aiko wrote: I will answer. Ccp needs to make money. This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts. @ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains. Guess we will see Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is. I was thinking the same thing.. As for me, I was speaking theoretically about a couple going Alpha and the possibilities. They are aware they will literally become Alpha clones. All the SP outside the Alpha clone SP will no longer be "active"--i.e. they they'll be limited to T1 frigates and cruisers and T1 modules by and large. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5232	Posted - 2016.09.11 05:41:41 - [87] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Rin Aiko wrote: I will answer. Ccp needs to make money. This is designed to attract new players not for vets to unsub alt accounts. @ccp - hope you know that if there is no limit to alpha log ins you will have a lot of accounts unsub. You will amywAy but it will be worse if no limit is in place. I have spoken to many guys who are talking just going alpha even on mains. Guess we will see Why on earth would they do that? Unsub their mains that is. The same reason I refused to undock for half of the daily event. I had decided the idea was that bad. Okay I see... no...wait I don't. You didn't think the daily events were a good thing so....you did not undock? Was that some sort of protest...a sit in or spin in? And now because these other players think Alpha clones are a bad idea they are going to become Alphas because...it is a bad idea. Talk about taking the Ultimatum Game to the next level. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5232	Posted - 2016.09.11 05:43:23 - [88] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Don't restrict the safeties on alphas that would suck. Open pvp sandbox and all. Beyond that... I think its a bit restricted as is and if we treat this as an extended trial i worry its gonna fall flat. Alphas will still struggle to get into the game when they'll be so weak and have so fewer options to omegas. Their sp limit alone is enough incentive to upgrade to omega and alphas could generate so much content for all of us, not just themselves, that more of us stay subbed for longer. You can keep the 5mil sp limit but allow for much more freedom. Let them train skills to whatever levels they like. With diminishing returns and an sp limit this comes with its own pros and cons. I'd also let them cross train e-war. A caldari missile pilot without target painting is kinda silly. Other things I'd let them train is cloaking, ecm drones, mining barges, gas mining and ice mining, reprocessing and informorph psychology. Also is there any reason why non-caldari alphas can train electronic warfare to 4 with the proposed system?? This change allows for specialised chars, which is what we always say is a good way for noobs to not be insignificant, in combat or mining (or whatever the alpha wants) and make use of implants and multiple heads to make up for a lack of sp. They wont be competitive, but they wont forever suck at everything. The final thing I'd do with this change is allow alphas to untrain skills. If we were to give them the freedom to make mistakes in training, the sp limit would make these mistakes a permanent handicap. So let them untrain skills at a rate of so many sp/hour. Hmmm...yeah a 5 million SP limit, but let them decide where to put it....okay. With some possible exclusions such as cynos and cloaks. Other contenders? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5232	Posted - 2016.09.11 05:45:28 - [89] - Quote Carniflex wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: They are aware they will literally become Alpha clones. All the SP outside the Alpha clone SP will no longer be "active"--i.e. they they'll be limited to T1 frigates and cruisers and T1 modules by and large. Current Alphas can fit (but just barely) most T2 modules. They just do not have access to T2 guns/drones which is quite significant handicap even on T1 hulls. Stats wise the Alpha fits will not be even in the same ballpark as subscribers similar fits would be. An Omen example fit I did earlier in this thread for comparison had approx 20% more dps at about 400% of the range, approx 20% more hp buffer, capacitor life, significantly better capabilities of applying that dps (drone speed, tracking, optimal, etc) and approx 20% better subspace speed. Which is not surprising at all considering the comparison is, in essence, between a 5 mil SP pilot and approx 80 mil SP pilot. A bit too large gap to bridge if pilots of roughly equal skill (in non SP sense) happen to meet. That is before one considers that subscriber has access to T2, T3 and pirate hulls and Alphas do not. You do understand there needs to be a reason for me to keep paying my sub....right? Because if there isn't I won't. Seriously, your grasp of fundamental economics sucks donkey balls. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5239	Posted - 2016.09.11 18:52:50 - [90] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Could do what some other games have done and do tiers of paid structures. Beta could be a one time payment of 10 euros to access a second race and extend sp cap to 10mil with certain skills Delta could be a reduced subscription cost and allow almost full functionality with limits like what size or complexity ship you can fly for ex nothing bigger than a bc and t1 only for 5 euros a month No after a certain point you'd lose alot of current subs. Everyone needs to keep in mind that CCP is not a charity. If it got to the point where there are too few subs CCP will try to monetize the game like every other f2p MMO. Having gold ammo for purchase. Good bye in game economy. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5239	Posted - 2016.09.12 07:03:54 - [91] - Quote Cygnus Utini wrote: How does CCP plan on curtailing the inflation that will accompany the addition of so many alpha clones. What inflation? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5239	Posted - 2016.09.12 07:05:20 - [92] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Cygnus Utini wrote: How does CCP plan on curtailing the inflation that will accompany the addition of so many alpha clones. Inflation is primarily driven by isk faucets. The largest of which is carrier ratting (as shown by the dramatic increase in bounties after the citadel expansion). Alpha clones will not be impacting significantly on the supply of isk due to their ship limits. This would have been my answer if the question was directed at market prices With such skill restrictions we might even see some things go up in price such as t1 hulls That is not inflation though. This notion of demand-pull inflation is not really inflation. Inflation has to do with the money supply not things like changes in demand or supply. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5243	Posted - 2016.09.12 22:21:08 - [93] - Quote bozalrea wrote: so, i'm asking myself how much time we'll wait before new 'one week plexs' will hit the market to squeeze out every last drop of money from the poorests eve players ? ^^ Some could like it :) ; Why are you assuming that Alpha players will be poor IRL? I know one friend who intends to give it a go and the reason he'll likely stay Alpha is RL just doesn't give him the time to justify the investment...from an income perspective he certainly could afford to go Omega though. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5244	Posted - 2016.09.13 05:35:18 - [94] - Quote Astrid Farnsworth wrote: Might be this was already answer but where goes my question: if I have several accounts that dont have character because they whore sold or transfer, could I the possibility to create a new character in alpha state? I believe so, just have to let the sub expire would be my guess. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5247	Posted - 2016.09.14 06:51:31 - [95] - Quote Cearain wrote: Starting new characters may sound good to you, but I already have invested years in the characters I have. For years ccp has been saying race doesn't matter. Now it does and in a substantial way. I don't want to exaggerate this but the difference is substantial. When the overall skills are decreased having the 2 weapon systems becomes even more valuable. This is true due to the way the bonuses work. I'm sorry but...WTFAYTA? Race won't matter to an Omega clone. So unless you are thinking of letting current Omega clones going ALPHA (and why on earth would you do that) what does it matter? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5247	Posted - 2016.09.14 07:01:14 - [96] - Quote Cearain wrote: Namaan wrote: I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas. You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account. Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice. At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps. Edit: I didn't realize the alphas could use tech 2 damage mods. The damage is easilly over 600 dps for a gallente blaster gnosis. I really think this is a bit too powerful because honestly I think I would rarely sub anymore. Have you read the Dev blog? Alphas cannot do PI. Can they fly around in a Gnosis? Sure. And please show us this 600 DPS Gnosis fit that an Alpha can fly. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5250	Posted - 2016.09.16 19:05:44 - [97] - Quote Namaan wrote: Cearain wrote: Morgals wrote: Looking through the alpha clone skills I think the drone skills of amar and gallentai make them significantly more powerful than caldari or minmitar. Bumping caldari and minmitar to drone 4 would help a lot as a few ships do have 40m3 of drone bandwidth. I would also like to see more than 1 skill point in target painting. target painting is not as useful at level 1 and should be brought up to level 3. Neither caldari nor minmatar can even use medium drones. This mainly hurts them with the gnosis (the best ship alphas can fly) I don't mind whether they reduce the amarr or gallente or boost the caldari, but until they do the races have a substantial imbalance. Indeed, it's definitely an area that needs to be fixed... boost Drones on the 2 races, and drop alpha pi, problem solved. Alphas don't need PI, as is they can do well enough with PvP, FW, plus some marketing, and mining, don't need PI too. Unless something has changed, the Devblog does not include PI skills. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5250	Posted - 2016.09.17 05:34:44 - [98] - Quote Namaan wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Namaan wrote: Cearain wrote: Morgals wrote: Looking through the alpha clone skills I think the drone skills of amar and gallentai make them significantly more powerful than caldari or minmitar. Bumping caldari and minmitar to drone 4 would help a lot as a few ships do have 40m3 of drone bandwidth. I would also like to see more than 1 skill point in target painting. target painting is not as useful at level 1 and should be brought up to level 3. Neither caldari nor minmatar can even use medium drones. This mainly hurts them with the gnosis (the best ship alphas can fly) I don't mind whether they reduce the amarr or gallente or boost the caldari, but until they do the races have a substantial imbalance. Indeed, it's definitely an area that needs to be fixed... boost Drones on the 2 races, and drop alpha pi, problem solved. Alphas don't need PI, as is they can do well enough with PvP, FW, plus some marketing, and mining, don't need PI too. Unless something has changed, the Devblog does not include PI skills. The unanswered questions are about Alphas running preset up PIs. And...how would they do this? Can player A access player B's PI set up? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5250	Posted - 2016.09.17 09:03:36 - [99] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: And...how would they do this? Can player A access player B's PI set up? Spend 1-2 months as Omega. First month on a referral is free effectively since you get matching game time on your main account. You train PI skills during that time. Then you drop back to Alpha status having your PI up & running. Since they haven't answered if they can actually stop an alpha using PI it's already trained and set up it's possible that you could have free alpha PI alts using this method. And can they still access it without the skills? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5263	Posted - 2016.09.19 18:17:46 - [100] - Quote Bagatur I wrote: ffs what is this paranoia about swarms of Alphas here and hordes of Alphas there? do we see swarms and hordes of trials everywhere now? and Alphas are just unlimited trials. there is no reason to think that CCP will change the login limitations for Alphas. And even if we did...so what? Players in game make for more content. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5263	Posted - 2016.09.19 20:24:25 - [101] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Bagatur I wrote: ffs what is this paranoia about swarms of Alphas here and hordes of Alphas there? do we see swarms and hordes of trials everywhere now? and Alphas are just unlimited trials. there is no reason to think that CCP will change the login limitations for Alphas. Except for the bit where CCP have said they are 'considering if they need to implement login restrictions'. Meaning that currently they don't have a login limitation. And for why this is a bad thing Teckos, because they wouldn't be 'Players' in game. More players (who are worth interacting with and not spewing bile) are a good thing I agree. However each system becoming 100 alts of the same player is a bad thing. And why would this happen given the severe limitations already placed on them? You are assuming it will happen, so you must have some idea of what is going to ensure this will happen. Explain this "thing" that will ensure this. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5263	Posted - 2016.09.20 04:48:19 - [102] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: And why would this happen given the severe limitations already placed on them? You are assuming it will happen, so you must have some idea of what is going to ensure this will happen. Explain this "thing" that will ensure this. points at the last 70 pages People have already put a bunch of ways to abuse Alpha clones with the current limitations (assuming no limit on accounts) into this thread. RTFT. I'm sorry but that is a **** explanation. I can't tell you how many threads I have seen where it is, "Great CCP you just killed 'X'!!!!" Hell it happened in this thread, "This will crash the SP injector market." If this were a serious thing then said market would already be crashed....and oh...no, last time I checked there was no crash. All these apocalyptic prognostications fail to materialize. Please, point to something that is at least somewhat more solid that we toilet paper. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5276	Posted - 2016.09.25 05:44:00 - [103] - Quote Amyclas Amatin wrote: I can create combat effective fleets out of t1 frigates and cruisers. If you let us play multiple alpha clones, this thing will scale to infinity. Economy wise, I can imagine the vexor spam, they don't even have the price of plex as overheads! Also, venture spam: the only limiting factor is CPU power. If alphas are like trial accounts: you cant log in multiple alphas at once to grind isk or fight - then things would be far more sane. Please yes...the ganking opportunities are boundless. :P On a more serious note, yes it seems some sort of limit on the number of alpha accounts logged in at one time might be a wise decision. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5285	Posted - 2016.09.30 20:16:46 - [104] - Quote Sugar Smacks wrote: Welcome to constant suicide ganks of everyone. Why not? This is good just for the LOLS, you don't need profit, seriously. People have this Impression "you could have trial accounts before", sure sure, but I couldn't have somewhat trained characters with an unlimited amount of time to search targets. On top of that you can literally have so many If you lose enough reputation you just send off the belongings and drop the account. Then on top of this they are mass welcoming in the ISK sellers. You think ISK selling is a problem now? Get ready for a 50000x increase. Every trade hub will now be 2 messages on scamming followed by 1 message of ISK selling. CCP must have high expectations to stop these things, but I have yet to see any free to play game be successful at. Try not to be too busy combating these things because at the same time everyone will be trying as many exploits as possible on these accounts since getting banned is a LOL when it comes to such things on free accounts. If you are not banning people for masking their IP addresses you are truly in for a ride. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5286	Posted - 2016.10.01 16:58:28 - [105] - Quote Cearain wrote: Kaivarian Coste wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Try reading the minutes, it sounds like CCP are going to be limiting them to 1 free account per person Where is this? I like the idea of alpha clones. In the age of casual gaming, people don't want to "rent" a single game for $15 per month that they might play once a week. +1 to CCP. The minutes were unclear. I don't think they are going to limit free accounts to one per person because that would mean your omega accounts would be wiped when you are no subscribed. Do you mean only one free account logged in at a time? Probably the latter if they can figure that out...which is probably doable. This would put to rest most of the fears people have about alpha clones--i.e. ganking. As for PI I would hope they make the command center skill necessary for not just plopping down and upgrading the command center to to keep it running/operational. That way if an account goes alpha it cannot continue to do PI. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5289	Posted - 2016.10.02 20:43:54 - [106] - Quote Sgt Ocker wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Kaivarian Coste wrote: Where is this? I like the idea of alpha clones. In the age of casual gaming, people don't want to "rent" a single game for $15 per month that they might play once a week. +1 to CCP. It's not a direct quote but an inference from what they are saying. Why discuss detecting multiple clients if you have no plans to limit them in some way. Found under the CSM minutes of Clone States. Quote: CCP Rise then moved back to how Size Matters is planning to deal with simultaneous logins. CCP Cognac outlined that they would use a different method to detect multiple clients than they use now. As Teckos said, it's likely just going to be on current logins, which assuming it's a limit of one alpha at a time, pretty much solves the ganking fears, since sure a dozen people can gank with alpha's, but that requires a dozen real people at least, not one guy multiboxing a bunch of free accounts. They are also setting up control over the safety in case it turns out that ganking explodes through the roof. But not initially implementing it. Again some inference. I think both you and Techos may want to have another look at your numbers. In a 0.7 system; ONE meta fit Catalyst = ONE dead Retriever or Covetor. Right now a ganker does his thing and docks up to wait out the timer - Post Alpha, he just logs off one and logs in another "free" account. As many among the New Order and Code don't have to pay for the ships they use to gank, not having to pay for the characters is indeed likely to see a growth in the number of characters involved in ganking. Simultaneous logins, is only a small part of the issue What a great way to rip off ganking groups. Make a bunch of free Alpha accounts, get some free ships, then transfer them over to your main, and take them to Jita and sell them at no cost. Great idea! "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5290	Posted - 2016.10.05 20:38:21 - [107] - Quote Welisa Aldent wrote: Pls CCP High sec in eve dosent need more gankers pls do so they Always need to fly in green safty mode..becouse ganking gona get out of hand, even more then it have now. And btw what do we get? we the subs..so far its only the freeloaders that benefit from this.. I still get to pay and dosent get anything extra,sounds like a cheezy deal for us subs Try not paying and see what you get. No, we probably don't need more gankers, but the problem is there is not much else in the way of HS PvP that involves shooting people. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5368	Posted - 2016.10.15 21:04:28 - [108] - Quote Pestilen Ratte wrote: For a start, we can say for certain that FTP characters will have either a good time, or not. If they don't, they will leave, and it will have been a pointless exercise. If they do have a good time...... what is the point of paying a subscription? Why not have good time in Eve for free? Therefore, CCP have to ensure that the FTP experience is not sufficiently fun to attract this subscribers, and yet somehow sufficiently fun to attract new players. You seem to be thinking of these players as if they were one player. That is a critical methodological flaw. It is more accurate to say: Some will not have fun and will leave. Some will have fun and stay. Some will have fun and switch over to Omega status. So long as we get people in the last 3 categories that is good for the game in that it means more people to interact with. Pestilen Ratte wrote: I hate to say it, but this seems like bare faced nonsense dressed up as a good idea. Sooner or later, CCP is going to have to move away from a subscription model and towards alternate sources of revenue. The numbers are dying off fast, there is a lot of competition in the space pew sector, and the numbers are dying off fast. And the numbers are dying off fast. Does repeating something make it even more true. Yes numbers online is a problem, hence this move. Think of it as an unlimited trial. I can appeal to people who just do not have lots of free time to log in regularly, but still want to play. Also, it lets people learn about the game over a longer period thus, giving them more time to figure things out and if they want to start a paying sub. Somehow the bill has to be paid, and granting FTP for everyone does not remove that condition. In fact, it will make monetizing the player base even more critical which will almost sure mean things like PTW. And that will likely annoy the remaining player base and be very bad. Pestilen Ratte wrote: Don't get me wrong, CCP impress the heck out of me with their business model. They have had a good run. There are other streams of revenue that could be harnessed, but it would mean a cultural and structural change in the way CCP opera as a firm. It means ending the pay-to-win mechanics which currently define the game and seriously limit game play development. If players don't pay, how can they pay to win? Exactly what other revenue streams do you see if not pay-to-win or paid subs? And there is no pay-to-win in the game. There are pay-to-avoid-griniding, pay-to-skip-training-time, etc. but these have been in game for a very, very long time in one form or another, and they had the salutory effect of under-mining RMT. And effecting a change in corporate culture is no easy task. In fact, I would suggest that such attempts probably fail. Pestilen Ratte wrote: I think this change in the fundamental mechanics, away from pay-to-win drivers, will allow Eve to blossom as a proper action game, a contest between players on equal footing. I'm optimistic. This is anti-thetical to the very idea of the game--i.e. a sand box that promotes emergence, spontaneous order, and so forth. The idea of "equal footing" only applies in the sense that each player starts out capable of forging his own path in the game. That for different individuals there will be different paths. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5375	Posted - 2016.10.18 15:24:06 - [109] - Quote Sgt Ocker wrote: Again; There is no possible way to train an Alpha clone on an Omega account - It is an omega account, not an Omega character.--emphasis added Pretty much this, this has been pointed out pretty much 2 dozen times, stop asking about it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5396	Posted - 2016.10.20 17:00:59 - [110] - Quote Agondray wrote: I read the blog and its depressing....also I see lots of people now having ganker alts In which case CCP would lock safeties to green, at least in HS. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5400	Posted - 2016.10.20 18:43:12 - [111] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sgt Ocker wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Welisa Aldent wrote: Pls CCP High sec in eve dosent need more gankers pls do so they Always need to fly in green safty mode..becouse ganking gona get out of hand, even more then it have now. And btw what do we get? we the subs..so far its only the freeloaders that benefit from this.. I still get to pay and dosent get anything extra,sounds like a cheezy deal for us subs Try not paying and see what you get. No, we probably don't need more gankers, but the problem is there is not much else in the way of HS PvP that involves shooting people. I wonder if putting some effort into the lack lustre wardec system we have might not be the answer to highsec pvp opportunities. It is about time something was done to better encourage highsec wars. Functionally wardecs work fine. The only issue with them is the lack of reason to defend other than wanting the fight itself. No instance of wardec mechanics has ever addressed that. Nor can it, IMO. Wanting to PvP is more of a behavioral issue than one of mechanics. Somewhere Malcanis provided a thought experiment on this and when you read it and think about it one quickly realizes that if one simple does not like to PvP then no amount of tinkering with the mechanics would change that. Should have bookmarked that post..... "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5407	Posted - 2016.10.20 21:53:22 - [112] - Quote Tyberius Franklin wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Agondray wrote: I read the blog and its depressing....also I see lots of people now having ganker alts In which case CCP would lock safeties to green, at least in HS. I genuinely wonder if that's going to be an issue now. No (EULA abiding) multiboxing. No T2 weapons or mods. No Talos usage for big targets. Catalyst are still a potent tool even capped by mod/skill restrictions, but they can't be spammed by single players so it's likely not going to be an issue. Unless there's something/someone routing alphas from genuine new players to organized ganking in large numbers. I'm not sure that's a likely outcome though. And even if it is...well welcome to emergent play. If you do have 70 man fleets of 70 players running around in T1 fit cats shooting stuff and somebody is providing that organization and backbone...so be it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5428	Posted - 2016.10.28 19:44:07 - [113] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: There are somewhere in the region of 2 Million Gnosis. Minus losses this year. Assuming they never give any more out, zKill says 42,600 approx were lost so far. Even if we double that for non killboarded kills, we haven't put a significant dent in the overall quantity of Gnosis in EVE. And that's a lifetime kill count since they were introduced. Eventually they might run out, but for now it's a perfectly reasonable ship to use as an example ship for Alpha clones. Is that 2 million on the market or on accounts and the market? If it is the latter, deduct those Gnosis for accounts that have lapsed. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5526	Posted - 2016.11.17 20:03:43 - [114] - Quote Voxinian wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Voxinian wrote: The limitation on race and ships for alpha clones really need to looked at again. Returning player scenario: Old player has a Gallente toon that he/she trained to fly Caldari ships. Player comes back to EvE to check it out and can't fly any of the ships he still has in his hangar, because his character is originally Gallente. Old returning player logs out to never return again. Old player wouldn't have come back anyway, so this is not a net loss. Old player also isn't prepared to invest 2 days and 10 million isk into being able to fly Gallente ships reasonably and buying some Gal Frigs. Since you know, unless they extracted the skills (In which case they aren't long unsubscribed) they have Gal Frigate 3 in your example already, plus some Gal weapon skills. So not seeing why the old player needs pandering to in this case when they are that impatient and throwing a wobbly that they can't use their previous FOTM ships for free. It's more about preference than having to buy a ship from an other faction to fly with. I personally only fly missle boats ever since I started playing. And now when I checked back in EvE I find myself stuck with Amarr ships that I don't like to fly with. They should have given the choice with the first login after the update to pick the faction ships you want to fly with. I see where you are coming from, but I think you represent a small minority of players. I think the bulk of older players are pretty diversified in the types of ships they can fly. I can use all factions frigs, cruisers, assault frigs, assault cruisers, etc. I learned early on that as CCP tries to balance things being dedicated to just one weapons system, race, etc. often left one with some sub-optimal choices. So if I ever let this account go Alpha, no problems. Maybe they'll iterate on the Alpha clones and that option will pop up down the road...best you can hope for I think, barring extracting skills and injecting where you need them. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 5527	Posted - 2016.11.19 03:39:49 - [115] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Sgt Ocker wrote: Maybe ALL Alpha's should have the option to fly ships from 2 factions, so a mistake early on doesn't mean a wasted, less than desirable experience. Or we could finally balance a lot of those ships properly..... Just a thought. Rather than perpetuate FOTM (Or Decade in some cases) That seems like the best option...but also probably the hardest to do. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

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